--- Log opened Mon Mar 07 00:02:02 2011
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13:00 < happyhessian_> you guys rock, i've been waiting for years to get rockbox on my classic and now it finally appears to be working
13:33 < STeeF> TheSeven, what is the best/correct approach (api call's) to execute an embedded emCORE-application. For example I write application A which want to start / run application B. On linux I would use the exec-family of syscalls.
13:34 < TheSeven> there's an "execimage" syscall for that
13:34 < TheSeven> see /emcore/trunk/init.c, /emcore/trunk/execimage.c and /apps/fastboot/main.c
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15:40 < STeeF> Thanks TheSeven I'll have a go at it!
15:48 < TheSeven> STeeF: did you have time to work on the uninstaller?
15:54 < STeeF> yep; but not much
15:54 < STeeF> got the uninstaller ported to emCORE, added and icon in the boot menu and included everything in the installer :)
15:56 < TheSeven> hm, I'm wondering if we should add some "advanced options" menu with the icon that diagmode currently has, which contains diagmode, uninstallation, umsboot, reset rockbox (on the classic), ...
15:57 < STeeF> like having a multi-level menu
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16:17 < bcoco85> some days ago i tried to check the ipod filesystem
16:17 < bcoco85> for my surprise, the partition is /dev/sdd
16:17 < bcoco85> with no number
16:17 < bcoco85> is this as expected?
16:18 < bcoco85> normally the device is sdsomething
16:19 < bcoco85> with a number, is a device partition
16:19 < teuf> if you don't have a partition table and run mkfs on a raw block device, this can happen
16:20 < bcoco85> i mean, if this is the expected behaviour (do you have the same disk configuration -no partition table-)?
16:21 < teuf> I have no idea what ipod model you own
16:21 < bcoco85> classic
16:22 < teuf> nope, my classic has 2 partitions iirc
16:22  * teuf plugs it in
16:22 < teuf> [26221.095454]  sdb: [mac] sdb1 sdb2
16:24 < bcoco85> thanks teuf
16:25 < bcoco85> now im in doubt
16:25 < bcoco85> im thinking about installing a partition table
16:26 < bcoco85> but dont know how emBIOS will react
16:26 < teuf> dunno why you didn't have a partition table in the first place
16:26 < teuf> mine only has apple firmware on it
16:26 < TheSeven> teuf: because embios sets it up that way
16:26 < teuf> TheSeven: k, I was starting to suspect something like that ;)
16:27 < TheSeven> but it doesn't really matter
16:27 < TheSeven> embios and rockbox should be able to mount primary partitions as well, however not extended ones
16:27 < TheSeven> is there any particular reason why you need a partition table though?
16:27 < TheSeven> IMO that's just wasted space
16:28 < bcoco85> so, its by design (?)
16:28 < teuf> bcoco85: yes it is
16:30 < bcoco85> fsck refuses to make changes in partition. i dont know if this setup does not let fsck.
16:31 < bcoco85> under windows, chkdsk just returns an error and says goodbye
16:34 < TheSeven> bcoco85: chkdsk on windows cocking up seems to be normal
16:35 < TheSeven> fsck on linux should work however
16:35 < TheSeven> what exactly does it say?
16:35 < bcoco85> root@debian:/home/co# fsck.vfat /dev/sdd
16:35 < bcoco85> dosfsck 3.0.9, 31 Jan 2010, FAT32, LFN
16:35 < bcoco85> There is no backup boot sector.
16:35 < bcoco85> And there is no space for creating one!
16:35 < bcoco85> /.rockbox/..
16:35 < bcoco85>   Start (2) does not point to .. (0)
16:36 < bcoco85> ..........more messages but all under /.rockbox/ directory
16:36 < bcoco85> Reclaimed 54 unused clusters (221184 bytes).
16:36 < bcoco85> Free cluster summary wrong (13098584 vs. really 13098691)
16:36 < bcoco85> 1) Correct
16:36 < bcoco85> 2) Don't correct
16:36 < bcoco85> ? 1
16:36 < bcoco85> Leaving file system unchanged.
16:36 < bcoco85> /dev/sdd: 3231 files, 16177922/29276613 clusters
16:36 < bcoco85> i just wanna check the FS because rockbox does a strange behaviour when finish to play the last song of a directory
16:39 < bcoco85> those fsck messages made me think about creating a partition table
16:40 < TheSeven> i don't see any correlation between having a partition table or not and those messages
16:40 < TheSeven> actually fsck should not even be able to see if there is a partition table or not
16:43 < TheSeven> hm, i wonder what's going on with .rockbox
16:43 < TheSeven> you should probably delete and re-create that
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16:53 < bcoco85> i created a msdos partition table
16:54 < bcoco85> with an vfat primary partition inside
16:54 < bcoco85> mounted it and copied latest rockbox files
16:59 < bcoco85> (17:43:53) TheSeven: you should probably delete and re-create that => i did that in an extremist way
16:59 < bcoco85> now its solved
17:00 < TheSeven> i still don't get why you want to have a partition table
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17:04 < bcoco85> i dont know the pros/cons about having or not a partition table on a single partition removable disk.
17:05 < bcoco85> maybe, because its the usual setup?
17:06 < bcoco85> how much waste of space is a partition table?
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17:34 < TheSeven> depends on how exactly you set it up. the absolute minimum would be 4KB, but it's usually 252KB or 60480-64260KB depending on the geometry setup
17:35 < TheSeven> so yes, that thing can waste 60MB if the tool creating it tries to stay compatible with some weird software
17:35 < bcoco85> wow
17:35 < TheSeven> oh, and if the end of the disk doesn't align to a cylinder boundary it can even be twice as much
17:36 < TheSeven> fun fact: only 66 bytes of that space are actually used for partitioning information
17:36 < TheSeven> long live ms-dos compatibility!
17:36 < bcoco85> haha
17:37 < bcoco85> i was thinking about creating a GUID partition table
17:37 < TheSeven> oh, and mounting the volume can take a few milliseconds longer due to an additional seek
17:37 < TheSeven> no, neither embios nor rockbox can use that
17:38 < bcoco85> and i supose that the only filesystem supported is vfat
17:38 < TheSeven> no, FAT32
17:38 < TheSeven> which technically is *not* vfat
17:38 < TheSeven> there's a lot of misconception about all those names :)
17:38 < bcoco85> oh, i though they was the same
17:39 < TheSeven> IIRC "vfat" is FAT16 with long file name support or something
17:39 < TheSeven> anyway, it isn't used in practise any more
17:39 < bcoco85> we will see the FAT filesystem for centuries
17:40 < GaveUp> centuries, eh?  what has ever survived for centuries?
17:41 < TheSeven> no, it's finally disappearing
17:41 < bcoco85> languages
17:41 < bcoco85> the successor to FAT is NTFS.....
17:41 < TheSeven> but i'm pretty much surprised to see some software from 1990 still working on windows 7
17:42 < GaveUp> TheSeven: yeah but until what's there to really replace it as a "portable" fs?  ntfs?
17:42 < TheSeven> bcoco85: one can argue about that
17:42 < GaveUp> bcoco85: languages?  pfft!  
17:42 < TheSeven> bcoco85: they are technically very different, and from the name i'd rather argue that exFAT is the successor of FAT
17:42 < TheSeven> both exFAT and NTFS are getting supported by more and more embedded devices
17:43 < GaveUp> sadly whatever the next mass used fs is for portable drives is it will be decided on by MS :/
17:44 < bcoco85> i was thinking if it would be difficult to implement EXT fs support in rockbox
17:44 < bcoco85> ext2,3,4,.-.-
17:44 < bcoco85> like apple firmware uses HFS
17:44 < TheSeven> i don't know the details of those ext file systems, but they can't be simpler than FAT by definition
17:45 < TheSeven> the only complicated thing of FAT32 one could get rid of is long file name support
17:45 < TheSeven> i'd assume that ext2/3/4 handles that in a lot more sane way
17:46 < GaveUp> your definition of complicated differs greatly from mine
17:46 < TheSeven> how?
17:47 < GaveUp> cuz to me embedded dev is insanely complicated ... or for that matter just writing code at the level fs code to access a hd
17:48 < TheSeven> that doesn't change the relative complicatedness of EXTx over FAT32
17:50 < bcoco85> http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NoDo => Support other filesystems than FAT32 (like NTFS or ext2 or whatever)! 
17:50 < GaveUp> basically...what you do is mind bogglingly complex to me
17:50 < bcoco85> only FAT32
17:50 < TheSeven> of you're doing that for years, you get used to it :)
17:51  * GaveUp was at a confernence on sat and one of the speakers was talking about embedded dev ... rekindled my interest in it but pretty much still at square one for where the hell to start
17:52  * TheSeven is not sure of the bottom-up or top-down approach is better
17:52 < TheSeven> s/of/if/
17:52 < GaveUp> to what?
17:52 < TheSeven> well, digging your way from the hardware to the application layer or the other way round
17:53 < GaveUp> given where I am the hardware side is what I need...the software side more or less makes sense and where it doesn't it's because of a lack of understanding of the hardware side
17:54 < TheSeven> how about the operating system side of things?
17:54 < GaveUp> ?
17:54 < TheSeven> i.e. the kernel except for the drivers
17:55 < TheSeven> things like the scheduler, locking, running applications, libraries, ...
17:55 < GaveUp> the theory of a lot of the parts I get ... schedulers, threading, etc ... 
17:56 < GaveUp> get down to something like mapping libs/code to memory and I'd have a bit to dig in to but at this point I'm at the ok I don't understand the hardware side so I feel like I've got this partial picture and it makes digging more into the software side difficult
17:56 < GaveUp> or frustrating I should say
17:57 < GaveUp> especially when I have no reason to dig deep into the linux kernel or such
17:57 < TheSeven> so you fell more or less comfortable with writing apps/libs for emcore?
17:57 < TheSeven> s/fell/feel/
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17:59 < bcoco85> (18:35:08) TheSeven: so yes, that thing can waste 60MB if the tool creating it tries to stay compatible with some weird software => i hope that GParted is a good boy
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18:00 < TheSeven> GaveUp: also, if you look at e.g. fat.c/file.c/dir.c, do you get how that kind of thing works?
18:01 < TheSeven> this is OS level code that doesn't use the hardware directly, and you don't really need to understand how storage_(read|write)_sectors works
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18:35 < GaveUp> TheSeven: i'll have a look after work
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20:35 < paulo_> hello
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 08 00:02:04 2011