--- Log opened Tue May 31 01:13:50 2011
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09:57 < user890104> [7]: what do you think about fastboot being implemented as a setting in a file that is stored in the nor flash, and the bootmenu app checks every time if this setting is enabled and boots rockbox if it is
09:58 < user890104> this setting should be able to be set/unset from the bootmenu
10:01  * Farthen thinks that this would require the hdd spinning up earlier, wouldn't it?
10:02 < Farthen> -> greater delay for the normal theme? i'm not sure on this but i thought the hdd would be spinning up while the menu is displayed
10:03 < user890104> if the settings file is on the nor flash as i suggested, it won't slow down
10:03 < [7]> it wouldn't slow down even if it's on the HDD, as it will check for an alternative init file on the HDD first
10:03 < Farthen> oh yeah, right
10:04 < [7]> (and even if it wouldn't, the storage init will block during boot until it has mounted the partition)
10:04 < Farthen> why do we need the storage init that early?
10:05 < Farthen> not that it is a huge deal - i'm just wondering
10:05 < [7]> because it happens during kernel init, before passing control to userspace, as starting at that point anything might try to access storage apis
10:07 < Farthen> ah, i see
10:08 < user890104> what about the idea of replacing the fastboot application with a setting stored in the nor flash?
10:08 < user890104> so its functionality would be merged with the bootmenu
10:09 < Farthen> that may make updates easier at least
10:10 < user890104> and reduce the files in releases by one
10:12 < Farthen> still not the optimal solution to the api version problem. what we need is a fallback to the builtin init.emcoreapp when the one on the flash fails
10:12 < [7]> i wouldn't object a setting on the hdd. feel free to implement that.
10:12 < [7]> i'm not sure about the nor flash though, as we currently don't have sane apis for read/write nor I/O
10:12 < [7]> you can basically just flash an image to it
10:12 < Farthen> is there some free sector on nor?
10:13 < Farthen> even though a hdd setting would work just as fine i think
10:14 < Farthen> it has only one problem which is user manipulation. so there has to be some kind of more sophisticated input parser
10:15 < Farthen> maybe we need a settings library at some point
10:15 < Farthen> not now but maybe later
10:15 < user890104> Farthen: we may simply check for a .boot folder, then a file named fastboot in it
10:15 < user890104> if the file is there, lanuch rockbox, otherwise show the menu
10:15 < [7]> you could map some kind of an "nvram" sector/file on the nor, but that wouldn't have any wear leveling
10:15 < user890104> launch*
10:16 < [7]> but you could as well write such an NVRAM file to the HDD as rockbox is doing it
10:16 < Farthen> and if rockbox isn't there launch the menu anyway
10:16 < Farthen> this would have the advantage that fastboot would even work when rockbox isn't there
10:17 < user890104> so the main idea here is that fastboot should be part of the boot menu, not a separate app
10:17 < Farthen> and if menu is pressed on boot it would boot to the menu nonetheless to make transitioning back from fastboot easier
10:18 < Farthen> maybe we should create a .boot/settings folder to make that thing clean from the beginning
10:18 < user890104> yeah, that's even better idea
10:19 < user890104> so we'll need a settings parser
10:19 < Farthen> not necessarily
10:19 < Farthen> we could just check for a file called "fastboot"
10:19 < Farthen> i just proposed that we *might* later need a settings parser
10:20 < Farthen> to store more sophicticated settings than one bit :)
10:20 < Farthen> the question is if we really want to name that folder .boot and not .emcore
10:21 < Farthen> i'm not sure on that one, both has its advantages IMHO
10:21 < user890104> .freemyipod ?
10:22 < user890104> or just .fmi
10:22 < Farthen> also a possibility
10:23 < Farthen> probably the best even
10:23 < Farthen> do we currently store anything in .boot apart from init.emcoreapp?
10:23 < user890104> appleos.bin i think
10:23 < user890104> on nano2gs
10:24 < Farthen> hmpf
10:24 < user890104> so .boot is more common here
10:24 < Farthen> [7]: do you see any problem in renaming that folder to something more futureproof?
10:25 < Farthen> even though appleos.bin may stay in .boot
10:25 < Farthen> because it is not really emcore specific
10:28 < Farthen> does this make any sense? http://www.pastie.org/1997472
10:31 < user890104> maybe .freemyipod/settings
10:31 < user890104> and inside:
10:32 < user890104> [boot]
10:32 < user890104> fastboot=rockbox
10:32 < user890104> or: fastboot=appleos
10:32 < Farthen> you are proposing a .ini like config format?
10:32 < user890104> something like that to be more flexible instead of creating many files/folders
10:33 < [Saint]> why not check for either fastboot.emcore or fastboot.appleos?
10:33 < [Saint]> (just a suggestion)
10:33 < [Saint]> then it's still one file, but it can be empty, just a dummy file.
10:33 < user890104> [Saint]: you meant fastboot.rockbox instead of fastboot.emcore? :)
10:33 < Farthen> a settings lib may be the solution to thins but i'm not sure if this isn't overkill
10:33 < [Saint]> I did indeed ;)
10:35 < [Saint]> But, yeah...I'd see that as the "sane" solution. It's far easier to create a blank file name foo.bar then it is to create foo.bar and make sure it has specific content.
10:35 < Farthen> sure
10:35 < [Saint]> just boot either OS depending on the file .ext
10:36 < [Saint]> that way it even opens it up to being used as a sort of "autorock.rock" and perhaps could be used to run arbitrary emcore apps at boot time.
10:36 < user890104> for windows it would be a bit difficult to create a new file with suck extension if you have "hide known file extrnsions" turned on
10:37 < [Saint]> "fastboot.<emcore_app_I_want_to_run>"
10:37 < user890104> that's why i proposed ini file format, and maybe even .txt extension
10:37 < Farthen> why not a .ini extension if it is an ini file?
10:38 < user890104> well, that would be fine too
10:39 < user890104> if i need to choose between fastboot.something and fastboot.txt i would pick .txt because of that
10:39 < user890104> but .ini is even more suitable
10:42 < user890104> s/suck extension/such extension/
10:59  * [7] votes for a binary /.boot/nvram.dat file
11:00 < [7]> that at least prevents users from tampering with it if they don't know what they're doing
11:00 < [7]> ideally with a simple crc to protect it from accidental modification
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11:02 < Farthen> [7]: that would make it hard to do proper abstraction IMHO
11:03 < Farthen> so every app would need an own nvram.dat file
11:03 < Farthen> this is of course fine for such a small setting
11:05 < Farthen> it is just that we should know what we want to do: a) a small setting, not a lot of work -> nvram.dat or just a file called "fastboot" b) a proper solution to storing permanent data on the user flash/hdd -> an ini/yaml/xml/rockbox type of config file that is capable of storing different data for different applications
11:07 < user890104> Farthen: the latter approach sounds like something similar to windows's registry (single storage for multiple purposes)
11:07 < Farthen> yeah, registry!!!
11:07 < user890104> nooo!!
11:08 < Farthen> if we don't create a big mess out of it i don't see a problem there
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11:09 < [7]> well, /.boot/nvram.dat as the boot menu config?
11:09 < [7]> or maybe /.boot/boot.cfg or /.boot/config.dat
11:09 < Farthen> again, we could do that. but i don't see it as a permanent solution to create nvram files all over the place for each small setting that is to be stored
11:09 < [7]> apps will usually need to store much bigger and more complex amount of data anyway
11:10 < [7]> so i don't really see the point of integrating that stuff into the boot menu
11:10 < [7]> Farthen: what else would you propose?
11:10 < [7]> a single registry for everything that needs to store data?
11:10 < Farthen> why not?
11:11 < [7]> i don't really like that idea because copying settings from one device to another would get non-trivial
11:11 < Farthen> or at least a lib that is capable of creating config files for different applications
11:11 < [7]> i.e. downloading a pre-made "autoboot appleos" config file would clear other apps' setitngs
11:11 < Farthen> this doesn't have to be now
11:11 < [7]> settings*
11:11 < user890104> i like the *nix way of storing settings - each app has a separate folder with its stuff inside
11:11 < Farthen> yeah, we could do that too
11:12 < [7]> that's basically what i'm proposing
11:12 < Farthen> i'm just proposing an abstraction lib to make parsing of such files trivial
11:12 < [7]> is parsing them really an issue for the boot menu?
11:12 < Farthen> it is not. again, this doesn't have to be now
11:13 < [7]> which settings would you imagine?
11:13 < user890104> Farthen: it depends on what data would be stored by the application
11:13 < [7]> what i could think of would be things like a fastboot timeout, powerdown timeout, default boot option, ...
11:13 < Farthen> i want to keep that open - the same way as emcore is open to anything
11:13 < [7]> all fixed-size stuff where we can just write our in-memory c struct to a file
11:13 < user890104> for example, my music app currently relies on a file /song.dat, so i would prefer to move it to a folder named .beeper
11:13 < user890104> the bootmenu could store stuff in .boot
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11:14 < user890104> some kernel settings could go to .emcore and so on
11:14 < Farthen> what about /freemyipod/settings/foo/* ?
11:14 < Farthen> like /etc on *nix
11:14 < [7]> if anything /.freemyipod/etc/*
11:14 < [7]> but i don't see the point of that either
11:14 < Farthen> why?
11:14 < [7]> there aren't that many apps
11:15 < Farthen> not yet :)
11:15 < [7]> and people will always start dropping files into the wrong folder if they have that possibility
11:15 < [7]> so for the 5 files that we're likely to see, i'd like to keep them in one folder
11:16 < [7]> other userspace programs might of course do things differently, but i'd rather like to sort things per application and not per file type
11:16 < Farthen> why does anyone need to drag&drop any files out of that thing anyway? if you can change the settings on the fly?
11:16 < [7]> so i like /.rockbox/config.cfg much better than /.etc/rockbox.conf
11:17 < [7]> the latter would lead to files for one thing being scattered all over the place, and make it difficult to remove something altogether
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11:17 < Farthen> i don't vote against per application settings. but i used nintendo ds homebrew before and i'm always angry about how big of a mess the root directory of the d card is there
11:17 < [7]> if we will ever get a *nix-like environment, we might consider an /etc folder for that
11:17 < Farthen> and not, the former would leas to files being scattered all over the root directory
11:18 < Farthen> *no, *lead
11:18 < [7]> but as long as we are primarily targeting windows users for a simple media player application, the current scheme seems to be suited much better IMHO
11:18 < [7]> Farthen: not files, folders
11:19 < [7]> if you want to clean that up, move everything to /.apps/beeper/...
11:19 < [7]> i think the everything that's booting related should stay in .boot though, like /boot on linux
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11:19 < Farthen> yeah, fine
11:20 < [7]> and for apps, I don't really have a strong opinion currently as we don't have any apps anyway
11:20 < [7]> once this really gets an issue, we might rethink that, but for now i'd say drop everything into /.apps/<name of app>/...
11:21 < [7]> user890104: feel free to add the configuration stuff to the boot menu, for now with a config file on the HDD
11:21 < Farthen> the problem is that once the time has come we can't rethink that anymore
11:21 < [7]> Farthen: changing the behavior of 5 apps which aren't really used by anyone shouldn't be a problem
11:22 < Farthen> "once this really gets an issue" << sounds like world domination has already begun to me :)
11:22 < user890104> [7]: which format should i pick for boot menu's config?
11:23 < Farthen> just create a struct with the settings and dump that thing into a file
11:23 < [7]> i'd say binary, 4 bytes version number, being 1 for now, then the actual settings, and then a CRC32 of all the data at the end
11:24 < [7]> we should probably implement a libcrc32
11:24 < Farthen> crc isn't hard IIRC
11:24 < user890104> is there a crc32 function already available in emcore?
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11:24 < [7]> oh, right, there might be one
11:25 < user890104> [7]: we could move it to a library then :)
11:25 < [7]> Farthen: the point of a lib would be that it generates the matrix once while it's being loaded, not needing to do it inside every app
11:25 < Farthen> we could move a lot of stuff to libraries. but isn't that part of world domination plan C?
11:26 < [7]> well, apparently we already have that thing in the core already
11:26 < [7]> probably for a reason...
11:27 < Farthen> we have like everything important in-core atm :)
11:27 < [7]> hm, i can't see it being used anywhere in the core
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11:27 < [7]> but well, it can stay there
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11:28 < [7]> this thing is like 100 bytes of code with a static table, that doesn't really justify the overhead of having a library
11:28 < Farthen> (as long as plan C doesn't kick in, yes :-P)
11:28 < user890104> so i can simply use emcore's crc32() call then
11:29 < [7]> yeah
11:29 < Farthen> how should we call it? µem?
11:29 < [7]> µnix :)
11:30 < user890104> lol, nice
11:30 < Farthen> haha
11:30 < [7]> but only of "C" stands for "confusion" :P
11:30 < Farthen> cµnix? confusing µnix
11:32  * [7] makes a decision:
11:32 < [7]> "time to have lunch"
11:32 < Farthen> µNIX = µNIX is Not unIX
11:33 < [7]> µinx?
11:34 < [7]> "*inx" Is Not "*niX"?
11:34 < Farthen> wtf, this is getting hilarious
11:34  * [7] starts to like µinx
11:34 < Farthen> how to spell that?
11:35 < [7]> yinx/jinx
11:35 < [7]> so let's refer to this as world domination plan µ :)
11:35 < Farthen> ok, great
11:35 < Farthen> µ is also great because user890104 doesn't have it on his keyboard :-P
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11:48  * user890104 has a shortcut of alt+0181 to make µ ;)
12:12 < geek7> lol
12:12 < TheSeven> right alt + m on a qwertz keyboard
12:12 < geek7> or copy pasting it ._.
12:14 < Farthen> TheSeven: user890104 doesn't have a qwertz keyboard ;)
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 01 00:06:47 2011