--- Log opened Fri Oct 21 02:10:26 2011
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02:50 < wawaron> hi
02:51 < wawaron>  I just wanna know how do you do this amazing stuff? I check the wiki and all but i want to know really how did you manage to do that?
02:53 < wawaron> I'm really interested in low level computing stuff, but don't where to start :s
02:54 < Farthen> haha
02:55 < Farthen> we've all been at this stage once :-P
02:55 < wawaron> i'm just freaking amazed by what you've done
02:56 < Farthen> basically its a combination of luck, more luck, [7]'s asm skills and too much time
02:56 < wawaron> luck ?
02:58 < Farthen> yeah. the notes exploit which was the first exploit to gain initial execution on most devices was found in a lucky "accident" IIRC
02:58 < Farthen> and we once found a datasheet of the SoC of the nano 2g which was also, basically, luck
02:59 < Farthen> apart from that it was a lot of reverse engineering
02:59 < wawaron> you did learned that in school ?
03:00 < Farthen> you don't learn such things in school
03:00 < wawaron> that's what i though
03:00 < wawaron> jesus gave you this "power" humm ?
03:01 < wawaron> Being more serious, can you guide me a bit in entering this world?
03:01 < Farthen> well, i don't know who this "jesus" guy is you are talking about but if he did that he must have been pretty good in planting a different memory in my head
03:03 < Farthen> you learn those skills basically by having someone explain it to you i think. or by reading reference manuals, technotes, datasheets and other documents until you finally get how all this works.
03:03 < Farthen> this does not imply that i get how any of this works! but at least i try. sometimes :-P
03:04 < wawaron> this look like a pain in the ass... BUt it's worth it right?
03:05 < Farthen> ah, it isn't that bad. the most important thing is experience i think
03:06 < Farthen> you can get the concepts fairly easy if you have a good knowledge of computers in general
03:07 < wawaron> I don't have much experience I "know" C C++(alone) and java (In school)
03:08 < wawaron> i've been trying to learn asm but can't find good resources to learn
03:09 < wawaron> It seem like no one know asm XD
03:09 < Farthen> well, i'd consider this a fairly good knowledge. i mean, if you are fairly good in c you are already half the way to learn asm
03:09 < Farthen> which is why many people call c "cross-platform asm"
03:10 < Farthen> which asm did you try to learn?
03:10 < wawaron> x86
03:10 < Farthen> ouch!
03:10 < Farthen> this is like the worst asm dialect on this planet :-P
03:11 < wawaron> really? then why is it used in every pc out there?
03:11 < Farthen> popularity doesn't mean superiority
03:12 < wawaron> yeah but x86 isn't considered better for doing certain things?
03:13 < Farthen> x86 grew with its poularity basically i think
03:13 < Farthen> *popularity
03:13 < wawaron> what's so wrong about it?
03:13 < Farthen> its cisc basically
03:14 < Farthen> and it has a weird syntax IMHO
03:14 < Farthen> being cisc it doesn't have a lot of registers
03:14 < Farthen> intel tried to fix the x86 problem with itanium which they first designed to be a successor to x86 but amd64 got more popular then
03:15 < wawaron> ok so it's not the best choice to learn asm 
03:16 < wawaron> would ARM be better? 
03:17 < Farthen> look at arm. they are running circles around x86 in every aspect but raw processing power. x86 had more time to develop which is why x86 is still a lot faster than arm for desktop use. even though arm is catching up
03:17 < Farthen> yes arm would be a lot better
03:18 < wawaron> ok could let's find an arm processor then... xD
03:18 < Farthen> hmm, ipod?
03:18 < wawaron> *cool
03:18 < Farthen> :-P
03:19 < wawaron> ipod cpu are arm :O
03:19 < Farthen> yep they are. since ages
03:19 < wawaron> didn't know that.. well never look at wiki ..
03:20 < Farthen> and so is nearly every tablet and smarphone out there
03:20 < wawaron> calculator?
03:20 < Farthen> depends
03:21 < Farthen> most simple ones aren't i think. but those dedicated calculators are dying anyways
03:22 < wawaron> so learning ARM assembly and experimenting on my ipod nano 2g should be a good way to learn?
03:23 < Farthen> hmm, it is definitely one way. but i don't think its the best one. the easy way would be to get some dev board with good datasheets and start hacking on those
03:24 < Farthen> that being said i never owned any dev board so far
03:24 < wawaron> like microcontroller and stuffs?
03:25 < Farthen> i won't really consider an arm a microcontroller anymore i think. its more like a low-power processor
03:25 < Farthen> of course depends on which arm generation you are talking about but the current ones built inside smartphones are really no microcontrollers anymore
03:28 < wawaron> hmm yeah, just looked at wiki now i know what you mean by dev board
03:29 < Farthen> you could also start by programming avr microcontrollers, sure. it gives you a pretty good overview on how such things work
03:29 < Farthen> at least if you really try digging deeper than the arduino or rather its c++ environment ;)
03:30 < wawaron> yeah of course
03:31 < Farthen> but avr development is also somewhat a committment if you want to do it seriously. it requires much more electronic skills than you would need for programming an arm development board
03:31 < wawaron> well i dont have any electronic skills for the moment :P
03:33 < wawaron> does a lot of people come here to ask questions like mine?
03:33 < Farthen> which is why i would advise you to get some arm dev board. unfortunately i don't really have any idea which ones are good and easily accessible on the lower level.
03:33 < Farthen> alternative would be that you would try to understand the ipods and try to live with the downsides of having virtually no documentation for anything except for the arm cpu cores
03:34 < wawaron> this look like hardcore xD
03:34 < Farthen> if you were to go the ipod route a nano 2g would probably be the best. we have mot things documented about this thing already
03:35 < Farthen> the worst one would be nano 5g+. we don't even have an exploit for these :-P
03:35 < wawaron> hmm but i could come with my exploit before you ! 
03:35 < Farthen> have fun
03:35 < wawaron> xD
03:36 < Farthen> no, really, if you like finding buffer overflows in software systems we won't stop you from doing that
03:37 < wawaron> you will have to find another exploit like the note exploit
03:37 < Farthen> yup
03:38 < Farthen> the problem about the ipods is that we do have a pretty good understanding of the nano 2g and the classics at least but we don't have lots of "documentation". we only have drive code basically
03:38 < Farthen> *driver
03:39 < Farthen> but if you don't mind the driver part you could easily write an app or two in the emcore environment
03:39 < wawaron> yeah the docs of the components arent available... I tried to find the docs for various components of a cd drive but ..
03:40 < Farthen> do you have an ipod atm?
03:40 < wawaron> yup ipod nano 2g running rockbox, using it almost everyday :)
03:42 < Farthen> ok so you only need some pc side tools and would be ready to go writing a small hello world app in c
03:42 < Farthen> which os do you use?
03:42 < wawaron> right now archlinux
03:42 < Farthen> ah, great. doing this on *nix is much easier than on windows
03:44 < Farthen> for the python tools communicating with the pc you would basically need those: http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/Toolchain
03:44 < Farthen> s/pc/ipod/
03:49 < wawaron> all set!
03:50 < Farthen> ok, you can check out our svn and cd into emcore/trunk/tools
03:50 < Farthen> and check out emcore.py
03:50 < Farthen> emcore.py help lists a detailed view of all possible commands
03:51 < Farthen> you can try plaing around with it if you want ;)
03:51 < Farthen> you just need to have an ipod running emcore connected to your computer
03:52 < Farthen> i really need to get some sleep now though. its… 6am here :)
03:53 < wawaron> i see! Thank you a lot for your help good night
03:54 < wawaron> really appreciate it :)
03:54 < Farthen> you are welcome. the world needs more lowlevel hackers so we are happy for everyone :-P
03:55 < Farthen> if you wanted to compile emcore, this would be your toolchain setup
03:55 < Farthen> http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmBIOS
03:55 < Farthen> gn8
03:56 < wawaron> i will check this out and surely comme back here if you don't mind
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20:51 < Jliax979> hi
20:51 < Jliax979> does anyone know when the next release is coming?
20:51 < Jliax979> The last one on http://files.freemyipod.org/releases/ is from ~6 months ago
20:52 < [7]> there aren't many changes since the last release
20:52 < [7]> so it's rather unlikely that there will be a new release soon
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21:54 < Jliax979> ok well it gets stuck sometimes, but thanks anyway, its way better than the stock apple ROM
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23:28 < wawaron> hi :)
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 22 00:06:01 2011