--- Log opened Mon Jan 02 00:03:25 2012
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00:26 < user890104> [7]: should we add a notice that users need to manually remove fastboot (init.emcoreapp), because the installer doesn't automaticly remove it as of the new release?
00:27 < [Saint_]> Wont that add up to API missmatches again?
00:27 < [Saint_]> Why was that removed? Its "safe".
00:28 < [Saint_]> Enough people got caught by it to prove its a worthwhile addition IMO.
00:28 < user890104> well i saw in the svn log that [7] removed the "remove("/.boot/init.emcoreapp")" line from the installer
00:29 < user890104> and i'm sure he has a good reason to do that
00:29 < [Saint_]> Possibly a mistake?
00:30 < [Saint_]> I can't think of a good reason to remove it, as it was added for a good reason...and afaik that is still a valid concern.
00:33 < user890104> ah, it was probalby a mistake
00:33 < user890104> http://websvn.freemyipod.org/comp.php?repname=freemyipod&compare[]=/apps/installer-ipodclassic/main.c@834&compare[]=/apps/installer-ipodclassic/main.c@835
00:33 < user890104> he might be testing something and forgot to revert it back :)
00:34 < [Saint_]> Its a tough call.. but I'd put it back.
00:35 < [Saint_]> The additional support isn't qorth the hassle :)
00:35 < [Saint_]> *worth
00:35 < user890104> in theory this should be gone since fastboot is not an app anymore
00:35 < [Saint_]> Oh?
00:35 < [Saint_]> Ah...I see. Very well.
00:35 < Farthen> but init.emcoreapp should still be prefered, shouldn't it?
00:36 < Farthen> can someone test this?
00:36 < user890104> but on the other side, *any* init app could be wrong version after an update
00:36 < user890104> Farthen: init.emcoreapp should be avoided for fastboot
00:36 < user890104> there's a menu setting for that
00:36 < [Saint_]> Yeah...id say its best to have this safety net.
00:36 < Farthen> well but if fastboot is still there
00:36 < Farthen> it will not be removed
00:36 < user890104> if it's still there, it would boot
00:37 < user890104> now it won't be, but it should
00:37 < user890104> it's wrong only on the classics
00:37 < user890104> on nano2g it would be removed after an update
00:37 < Farthen> well, it would boot because the min_api_version was not increased
00:37 < user890104> i think it was
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00:37 < Farthen> if it was this breaks the upgrade for all fastboot users
00:37 < user890104> 7 rearranged some calls iirc
00:38 < user890104> exactly
00:38 < Farthen> it will definitely break the upgrade for any fastboot users coming from a version with a lower min_api_version
00:38 < user890104> which is ... all fastboot users
00:39 < [Saint_]> Sit back and wait for the support requests to roll in? Poke [7]?
00:39 < Farthen> no
00:39 < Farthen> it's fine
00:39 < Farthen> classic users will reformat :-P
00:39 < [Saint_]> Ah!
00:39 < Farthen> because of the change in hdd endianess
00:40 < [Saint_]> *this time* :)
00:40 < [Saint_]> Next time? :)
00:40 < Farthen> still i don't think it hurts removing it
00:40 < Farthen> i guess we should still put it back for later releases because i see no reason for it being not there
00:40 < Farthen> alternative would be fixing emcore
00:41 < Farthen> to check the version of apps itself
00:41 < Farthen> and act accordingly
00:42 < Farthen> interestingly fastboot was downloded by about half of the emcore population last time i checked
00:42 < Farthen> so basically we would have already noticed if it didn't work :-P
00:43 < Farthen> incredibly silent on irc actually
00:43 < Farthen> i am wondering if this is a good sign or a bad one
00:44 < user890104> [02:39:38] <Farthen> classic users will reformat :-P << they could make a full backup of their hdd before updating :P
00:44 < Farthen> yes they could do that
00:44 < Farthen> but i guess most will only make a backup of their music
00:44 < Farthen> s/guess/hope
00:45 < user890104> fastboot users are lazy
00:45 < user890104> they don't want to press one more button when booting
00:45 < user890104> so they'll backup the whole drive :)
00:46 < Farthen> i hope not :-P
00:46 < user890104> like ctrl+a, ctrl+c, open folder, ctrl+v, done
00:46 < user890104> hoping won't help
00:47 < Farthen> they need to upgrade rockbox too
00:47 < Farthen> so they can't just do that
00:47 < user890104> they will try
00:47 < user890104> and get stuck with the old api version issue
00:47 < Farthen> but we can't change that
00:47 < user890104> even before trying to update rockbox
00:48 < user890104> and .. how would they update rockbox?
00:48 < Farthen> because when the installation happens they would have already backed up
00:48 < user890104> they would boot the old version, which won't work
00:48 < Farthen> no they can't
00:49 < user890104> ah .. there's no old version
00:49 < user890104> it's formatted
00:49 < Farthen> it got deleted
00:49 < Farthen> they need to boot the fallback image
00:49 < user890104> so they'll boot the fallback, then restore their full backup, reboot and ... bang!
00:49 < user890104> wrong api version :P
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00:49 < Farthen> ah but also wrong rockbox version
00:49 < Farthen> so they need emcore tools anyways
00:50 < user890104> wrong api version before wrong rockbox version
00:50 < user890104> no, they can upgrade rockbox if emcore is working
00:50 < Farthen> i hope the users won't be that stupid :)
00:50 < user890104> by using the fallback image
00:50  * user890104 won't bet on that
00:50 < Farthen> you don't have to
00:50 < user890104> i mean, based on what i've seen so far...
00:50 < Farthen> but as you are going to do the support anyways
00:51 < Farthen> i don't care :-P
00:51 < user890104> i know u don't
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01:01 < Farthen> most people seem to be asleep right now. we only have like 9 classic downloads and 3 nano 2g downloads
01:01 < Farthen> or people don't want to upgrade
01:01 < Farthen> i have no idea :-P
01:05  * user890104 upgrades
01:06 < Farthen> i see you :-P
01:07 < user890104> classic done
01:08 < user890104> .execimage: decompression failed
01:08 < user890104> on nano2g
01:08 < Farthen> do it properly
01:08 < Farthen> with umsboot
01:08 < user890104> i'm doing it like thart
01:08 < user890104> that*
01:09 < Farthen> ah, umsboot complains?
01:09 < Farthen> boot the osos and try bootnote
01:09 < user890104> repeated with umsboot, same thing
01:09 < user890104> let's see the bootnote
01:09 < Farthen> which revision did you use before?
01:10 < user890104> 848
01:10 < user890104> i'm still at it on n2g
01:10 < Farthen> don't tell me last release otherwise i would need to kill you
01:10 < Farthen> ok
01:10 < Farthen> :-P
01:10 < user890104> why? can't i upgrade from svn head to release?
01:10 < user890104> or more likely from my build to 7's
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01:11 < user890104> appleos.bin doesn't boot
01:11 < Farthen> the latter may be the problem
01:11 < user890104> it's there
01:11 < Farthen> your build may be broken
01:11 < Farthen> restore with itunes
01:11 < Farthen> install the old release
01:11 < Farthen> and upgrade
01:11 < Farthen> and look if it works
01:12 < user890104> restore nano2g? it doesn't have dfu
01:12 < Farthen> uhm, disk mode?
01:12 < user890104> yeah but...
01:12 < Farthen> but what?
01:12 < user890104> aupd would never run
01:12 < user890104> i need to uninstall emcore
01:12 < Farthen> you can't boot disk mode?
01:12 < user890104> i can
01:12 < Farthen> ah, i see
01:12 < user890104> i can't boot osos
01:13 < user890104> from the flash
01:13 < user890104> nand flash -> data partition -> /.boot/appleos.bin
01:13 < user890104> it used to boot before
01:13 < Farthen> then just use the built in uninstall method
01:14 < user890104> i forgot to mention to [7] that it doesn't boot in the recent releases
01:14 < Farthen> you may have screwed sth up in your build
01:14 < user890104> it's not only this one but also the previous
01:14 < user890104> my build is fine
01:14 < Farthen> try the release. if that doesn't work too we have a problem
01:14 < user890104> i'll update with libemcore
01:14 < user890104> i did a clean reinstall recently
01:14 < Farthen> if you think so
01:17  * user890104 wonders why uninstalling doesn't have a yes/no prompt
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01:18 < Farthen> weren't confirmation prompts added to destructive operations?
01:18 < user890104> isn't uninstalling one of them?
01:18 < user890104> appleos still doesn't boot
01:18 < Farthen> do a clean install and try again
01:19 < user890104> that's what i did
01:19 < Farthen> with itunes restore?
01:19 -!- [Saint] [~Saint]@unaffiliated/saint/x-8516940] has joined #freemyipod
01:19 < user890104> no
01:19 < Farthen> do that
01:19 < user890104> but...
01:19 < Farthen> i'm sorry but i won't call back a release because you fail at testing for sth
01:19 < Farthen> so pls do a clean install to prove it really doesn't work
01:20 < user890104> 00itunes sux
01:20 < Farthen> [Saint]: do you have a nano 2g?
01:20 < Farthen> i think do you, right?
01:20 < [Saint]> I do...but I'm miles away from a workstation.
01:20 < Farthen> ok
01:20 < [Saint]> Sorry guys.
01:20 < Farthen> anyone else with a nano 2g in here?
01:20 < Farthen> we need to test for a bug which is going to upset some people
01:21 < alberthrocks_> upset? :P
01:21 -!- alberthrocks_ is now known as alberthrocks
01:21 < Farthen> alberthrocks: do you have a nano 2g?
01:22 < alberthrocks> nope, 4g
01:22 < Farthen> too bad. we may have some apple os booting problem for the n2g
01:22 < alberthrocks> I was about to ask you guys what ETA you have for the nano 4g :P
01:22 < Farthen> ETA: never :-P
01:22 < alberthrocks> heh :P
01:22  * user890104 launches iTunes
01:23 < Farthen> except when you want to learn disassembling crappy apple firmware
01:23 < Farthen> we are the arm asm training camp
01:23 < alberthrocks> Nah. I'm the Z80 guy who doesn't really know it well at all :P
01:23 < Farthen> we teach people arm asm and disassembling
01:24 < Farthen> then they do some minor stuff
01:24 < Farthen> and walk away
01:24 < Farthen> :-P
01:24  * user890104 didn't walk away
01:25 < Farthen> oh but you don't seem to be interested in continuing to reverse engineer the nand driver, are you?
01:25 < alberthrocks> There are some people in the other community I'm in who do know some ARM ASM... but they're more interested in writing for the TI-Nspire than for iPods :P
01:25 < Farthen> arm asm isn't hard
01:25 < Farthen> and if you can do z80 you can do this one too
01:26 < alberthrocks> Hmm, maybe. Tell you what. If I get bored and learn ARM ASM for the Nspire, then I'll join you :P
01:26 < alberthrocks> "who doesn't really know it well at all" :P
01:26 < Farthen> ah, we can change that
01:26 < user890104> Farthen: i'm lacking hardware knowledge, so i can't disassemble something that i don't know what's it supposed to do
01:26 < Farthen> if you in turn reverse engineed the flash driver
01:26 < Farthen> *reverse enginner
01:26 < Farthen> :-P
01:26 < [Saint]> Inspired...uuurgh
01:27 < [Saint]> *Nspire even
01:27 < alberthrocks> Nspire hacking development is fun to watch, actually.
01:27 < Farthen> user890104: a "nand flash" is some IC which is supposed to store data bits. you can read and write data to and from it
01:27 < Farthen> user890104: there is your explanation
01:27 < alberthrocks> TI does stupid things, like make routines for "nop" (yes, "nop"), but they aren't _that_ stupid.
01:27 < Farthen> user890104: will you reverse engineer it now?
01:28 < user890104> Farthen: it's an EFI module
01:28 < user890104> i know nothing about efi
01:28 < [Saint]> nop routines? Delightful.
01:28 < user890104> except the meaning of its abbreviation
01:28 < Farthen> ah, you can look if you find the nand driver in osos
01:29 < Farthen> except that it may be missing the init routines
01:29 < alberthrocks> [Saint]: It's kinda hilarious, if not sad: http://wikiti.brandonw.net/index.php?title=83Plus:BCALLs:4CBD (TI-8x platform, Z80)
01:30 -!- el3ctrik is now known as el3ctrik-away
01:30 < [Saint]> Hmmm...
01:30 < user890104> Farthen: bootnote on just restored nano2g puts it in reboot loop
01:31 < Farthen> are you kidding me?
01:31 < user890104> uhm no
01:31 < Farthen> MAKE IT SO THAT THIS ISN'T TRUE AND THIS RELEASE JUST WORKS PROPERLY KTHXBYE
01:31 < user890104> it shows the OF main menu for a split second
01:31 < user890104> then it reboots
01:32 < Farthen> try the other installation method
01:32 < user890104> ipodx?
01:32 < Farthen> yup
01:32 < [Saint]> That's concerning.
01:32 < Farthen> this release may be completely fucked up for nano 2g users
01:32 < [Saint]> Bootnote is the "it just works" method.
01:33 < [Saint]> Or, was.
01:33 < Farthen> i remember how 7 said this was the most untested emcore release ever
01:33 < Farthen> like 2 hours ago
01:33 < [Saint]> Normally he runs it by me...but news of a release came as a surprise.
01:33 < Farthen> if this one crashes too we may need to do some ninja action
01:34 < [Saint]> I assume he asks you guys to test also?
01:34 < user890104> Farthen: ipodx installs, still no appleos.bin though
01:34 < Farthen> he is busy next week and wanted to get it out before that
01:34 < [Saint]> Ah.
01:34 < Farthen> oh, he would ask me if i had some device that worked
01:37 < Farthen> i fixed the releases page
01:38 < Farthen> classic builds are still up though. i guess we should hotfix this
01:38 < user890104> ok, so at least the bugs are known
01:39 < Farthen> user890104: can you check for the revision with the regression?
01:39 < user890104> Farthen: maybe tomorrow
01:40 < alberthrocks> Farthen: So.... NAND driver is of utmost importance for ports? :P
01:40 < Farthen> well
01:40 < Farthen> if you can't read the flash…
01:40 < Farthen> you can't load stuff from it
01:40 < alberthrocks> I'm only interested because joyful Banshee keeps f'ing up my iTunesDB every time.
01:41 < Farthen> well, after NAND comes the NAND dump
01:41 < Farthen> when we have a raw nand image we can then look at the internal structure
01:41 < alberthrocks> Ahh, makes sense.
01:41 < Farthen> then we find out it uses some flash translation layer we never hear about
01:41 < Farthen> *heard
01:41 < alberthrocks> I'm assuming there's no "IDA Pro" in this? :P
01:42 < Farthen> don't get me started on IDA
01:42 < alberthrocks> hehe :P
01:42 < alberthrocks> What's your toolchain target?
01:42 < Farthen> arm-elf-eabi
01:42 < Farthen> you mean for emcore, right?
01:43 < alberthrocks> Whatever you want me to try and "disassemble" :P
01:43 < alberthrocks> If that's the one, I'll get started on building the toolchain
01:44 < Farthen> you don't have to be able to compile code in order to disassemble it :)
01:44 < Farthen> so you really want to do this? hint: this is going to be painful and you will most likely not get until the end
01:44 < Farthen> and we all have like no experience in EFI
01:44 < Farthen> the only guy who has will be super busy the whole week
01:45 < alberthrocks> No commitments, and no guarantees ;)
01:45 < alberthrocks> Just for fun.
01:45 < alberthrocks> I will be busy as well this month - midterms :P
01:45 < Farthen> ok, we are basically throwing you into the frozen lake now
01:45 < alberthrocks> sounds painful :P
01:45 < Farthen> it is not the fall that hurts
01:45 < Farthen> :-P
01:46 < alberthrocks> have any recommended versions of GCC, binutils, etc.?
01:46 < alberthrocks> And what about newlib?
01:46 < Farthen> what is your operating system?
01:46 < alberthrocks> ...
01:46 < Farthen> ah, right
01:46 < alberthrocks> Linux :P
01:46 < Farthen> i remember :-P
01:46 < alberthrocks> I would be a simply ignorant person if I weren't.
01:46 < alberthrocks> My server uses Debian 6.
01:46 < alberthrocks> 32 bit
01:47 < Farthen> oh, i wouldn't say not using linux is ignorant. but not using UNIX is :)
01:47 < alberthrocks> Oh no, I mean ignorant in attempting you help you guys ;)
01:47 < alberthrocks> Works either way.
01:47 < Farthen> do you have a running ida pro?
01:48 < Farthen> the recommended toolchain is the rockbox one btw
01:48 < alberthrocks> ehh... if I emulate it in WINE, sure.
01:49 < Farthen> for the toolchain: look here under "building": http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmBIOS
01:49 < Farthen> (ignore the "outdated" header)
01:49 < Farthen> i can't find any more recent information
01:49 < Farthen> :-P
01:49 < alberthrocks> Hmm, interesting.
01:50 < alberthrocks> I was going to reuse the script I used for Nspire development, but the Rockbox page says they already have one :)
01:52 < alberthrocks> Rockbox SVN must be feeling sick today
01:52 < alberthrocks> New Year's blues, I guess :P
01:53 < alberthrocks> Oops, guess I spoke too soon
01:54 < alberthrocks> Just curious, how does media transfer on Rockbox work? And does it support MKVs?
02:01  * Farthen can't answer that question for you
02:01  * Farthen doesn't have a rockbox capable device
02:01  * Farthen only has this nano 4g
02:01 < Farthen> so yeah, if you do progress on the nano 4g i would be happy :-P
02:02 < Farthen> media transfer works by copying over files
02:03 < Farthen> on a file system
02:03 < Farthen> no syncing and stuff. this is why i won't be using rockbox even if it worked on my computer
02:03 < Farthen> but i'd like to have a fully working emcore port to play around with :)
02:04 < alberthrocks> Oh that's great either way :P
02:04 < alberthrocks> Copying files over is a LOT more fun then dealing with a broken iPod :P
02:04 < Farthen> you want to deal with a broken ipod?
02:04 < Farthen> i can help you with that
02:04 < alberthrocks> And I'm pretty sure I could hack up something really fast with Python + inotify
02:05 < alberthrocks> I am supposedly going to break my ipod again to give you guys a possible ipod nano 5g exploit...
02:05 < Farthen> i don't have any nano 5g so i don't care xD
02:05 < alberthrocks> A temporary software brick, if you'd like.
02:05 < Farthen> temporary?
02:05 < Farthen> that doesn't sound like fun
02:06 < Farthen> you should rather try to do a permanent brick
02:06 < alberthrocks> nah :P
02:06 < alberthrocks> Permanent = no restore fix?
02:06 < Farthen> anything else wouldn't be permanent, would it?
02:07 < Farthen> i already know one. it involves a hammer and physical force
02:07 < alberthrocks> heh :P
02:07 < alberthrocks> Or broken enough to necessitate a purchase of a NAND flasher :P
02:07 < Farthen> this won't work
02:07 < user890104> Farthen: messing up with the voltages in PMU can also give you some permanent break :)
02:08 < Farthen> yeah, exactly
02:08 < Farthen> the nand can have *any* content
02:08 < Farthen> it would still be able to be restored
02:08 < Farthen> because DFU is in the readonly bootrom
02:08 < alberthrocks> Oooh, classic brick: leave it in your pocket and wash it :P
02:09 < alberthrocks> Farthen: Sounds just like the iOS devices. ;)
02:09 < Farthen> it's the other way round
02:09 < Farthen> those devices came first :-P
02:09 < Farthen> and the iOS devices are doing it the same way
02:10 < Farthen> stupid useless side note: the nano 4g is capable of booting cds
02:10 < Farthen> cd in the sense of compact disk
02:10 < alberthrocks> heh :P
02:10 < alberthrocks> Couldn't some of the bootrom exploits be shared with the iPod Nanos?
02:11 < Farthen> if you don't know what a compact disk is - here are some pictures of it: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1264&bih=1232&q=compact+disk
02:11 < Farthen> yeah, we already use some from the iOS devices
02:11 < Farthen> it's really great. they discover exploits and we recycle them
02:11 < alberthrocks> Done! buildbot@withgusto:~/rockbox/tools$ arm-elf-eabi-gcc / arm-elf-eabi-gcc: no input files
02:12 < Farthen> pwnage 2.0 is an iOS device exploit. planetbeing helped port it
02:12 < alberthrocks> I never hear of that guy these days. Must've left the jailbreaking community, eh?
02:12 < Farthen> or died? dunno
02:12 < Farthen> he just disappeared
02:13 < alberthrocks> His Twitter is dead as well.
02:13 < Farthen> it happened to him once before for like half a year
02:13 < Farthen> then he returned as if nothing happened
02:13 < alberthrocks> Some apple fanboy kidnapped him? :P
02:13 < Farthen> but now it's been more than one and a half years and i have no idea what happened
02:14 < alberthrocks> Are there any other devs who have disappeared?
02:14 < Farthen> are you going to start a conspiracy theory?
02:14 < Farthen> i just want to do a quick note: this channel is not for conspiracy theories
02:15 < alberthrocks> Uh... no? :P
02:15 < Farthen> if you really want to start a conspiracy theory, post it on reddit
02:15 < Farthen> people will like it
02:15 < alberthrocks> heh :P
02:15 < alberthrocks> I'm just curious. I haven't been following the iOS JB scene for a long time.
02:15 -!- [Saint_] [~Saint]@unaffiliated/saint/x-8516940] has joined #freemyipod
02:16 < Farthen> btw where are you located? are you a never sleeping european or an american?
02:16 < alberthrocks> American :P
02:16 < alberthrocks> Who loves to study the SATs!
02:17 < Farthen> i see. i belong to the former species
02:17 < alberthrocks> And eat junk food, and live in a crappy government ;)
02:17 < Farthen> well, i thought the word "American" already implies the other things inplicitly
02:17 < Farthen> *implicitly
02:18 < alberthrocks> The only thing true about me is the !(first) :P
02:18 -!- [Saint] [~Saint]@unaffiliated/saint/x-8516940] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
02:18 < alberthrocks> [Now you know my age range! :P]
02:19 < Farthen> american education has always confused me
02:19 < Farthen> for me you could be between 10 and 30 years now
02:19 < Farthen> :-P
02:20 < Farthen> as you are talking proper english i supposed you must be older than 10 though
02:20 < alberthrocks> There are people <10 years here? O_O
02:21 < Farthen> oh, we had 13 years old people in here at least
02:21 < alberthrocks> Did they disassemble NAND drivers? :P
02:22 < Farthen> no, they had other dreams: "i am going to do an operating system which will run windws, linux and mac os programs all at once!"
02:22 < Farthen> well, whatever
02:22 < Farthen> people these days seem to be not inerested in disassembling drivers
02:23 < Farthen> and i can understand that. it is easier to write your own programming language i guess
02:23 < alberthrocks> An OS that runs Windows and Linux is not impossible :P
02:24 < alberthrocks> I think there's some patch/software for Linux that lets you run EXEs with WINE... without putting "wine " before it :P
02:24 < alberthrocks> Now Mac... good luck with that. :P
02:24 < alberthrocks> And of course! No one likes to play with raw assembly :P
02:24 < Farthen> it's probably easier to run everything on mac than any of the other possibilities
02:25 < alberthrocks> Heh, maybe. VMWare/VirtualBox, anyone?
02:25 < Farthen> this is no raw assembly. this is obfuscated raw assembly. at least it is so complicated that people might think so
02:26 < Farthen> things we learned from trying to disassemble this piece of shit: apple does not tend to overengineer. apple tends to overengineer *a lot* more than any sensible human being would ever do
02:27 < alberthrocks> Pursuit of perfection?
02:27 < Farthen> thus i think it is safe to draw the conclusion that one the craziest of all crazy people at apple work in the low level driver development team
02:27 < Farthen> *only
02:28 < alberthrocks> Well, I can't say I would be surprised if I saw such code in their iMacs, like DFU mode ;P
02:29 < Farthen> not to say that all people in the low level driver development team must have been completely stupid, evil and have had a brain surgery at most two weeks before thinking that it is a good idea to put EFI on these things
02:30 < Farthen> ok, enough rant. let's give you the idb + entry point
02:35 < Farthen> ok great. let me open the idb too
02:36 < Farthen> you can already look if you find the entry point to the nand driver yourself
02:37 < alberthrocks> I can't open it; what's the version of IDA you're using?
02:37 < alberthrocks> It says "newer version needed"
02:38 < Farthen> you obviously have an older version then :-P
02:38 < Farthen> let me check my version
02:38 < Farthen> 6.1
02:39 < alberthrocks> I'll have to check my "sources" :P
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04:10 < Farthen> creepy things are happening on th ml
04:11 < Farthen> i think i am going to sleep now before crazy things are happening and i will not sleep at all anymore
04:12  * Farthen will now ignore any ml posting until 14:00am GMT+1
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08:12 < TheSeven> user890104: any clue what happened wrt. OF boot?
08:12 < TheSeven> i indeed didn't test that because I never use the OF and don't hink much has changed wrt. this
08:14 < TheSeven> how did you manage to get that "decompression failed" error? i've never seen that.
08:17 < [Saint]> FWIW, I tested here...noteboot did *nothing* at all on N2G, and .ipodx installs and boots, but can't boot the OF.
08:18 < [Saint]> user890104 got a bootloop from noteboot iirc, my attempt just saw it ignored. As if it weren't there.
08:23 < TheSeven> your behavior is roughly what I would have expected
08:24 < TheSeven> notebook is a rather fragile thing that was never recommended
08:24 < TheSeven> we might as well remove that again
08:24 < TheSeven> noteboot* :P
08:24 < [Saint]> I always use it as the "it just works" method...
08:25  * TheSeven wonders what's going on with OF boot
08:25 < [Saint]> This is the first time noteboot has failed for me, ever.
08:25 < TheSeven> interesting... need to look into this tonight
08:26 < [Saint]> Whereas I've had corrupt .ipodx files, or seemingly corrupt, many a time.
08:26 < TheSeven> i'll leave this as is right now (nano2g file links removed) until tonight, there aren't many nano2g users anyway
08:27 < [Saint]> Are you going to put back the check to delete init.emcoreapp again?
08:28 < TheSeven> hm, i seem to have ignored that there are CE-ATA ipods while thinking through that change
08:28 < TheSeven> these might get into trouble...
08:29 < TheSeven> I really don't like the installer doing this kind of thing, and as we don't advise users to put this file there any more I'm wondering if just changing the autoboot filename of emcore is the better way to fix this
08:31 < TheSeven> (btw, if anyone should ever want to install fastboot for some odd reason, do it as /.apps/bootmenu/theme.emcoreapp, this is easier to fix if it goes wrong)
08:37 < [Saint]> Fastboot as a theme?!?
08:38 < [Saint]> Also...I kinda think fastboot should be the default for end users...but it's your boat, you float it how you want to :)
08:38 < [Saint]> Most people just want it to boot Rockbox, holding a button to get to the boot menu would be "cleaner" IMO.
08:39 < [Saint]> It's just another buttonpress for most people I would imagine (those not using fastboot).
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08:56 < [Saint]> Its probably just my opinion, I know I can't speak for anyone else, but...yeah. As useful as the many features of emCORE are, I think a vast majority of end users are using it solely as a Rockbox bootloader. I've even talked to a few people that actually uninstalled emCORE (until I told them of fastboot) because it was too daunting for them, and ending up in any of the menus (other than the Rockbox shortcut) was accidental and provoked an 
08:58 < [Saint]> I know its an advanced tool, for experienced users...and it tries to be as user friendly as possible. But since the Classic, and there being no alternative bootloader, more and more people are using it...or attempting to.
09:02 < [Saint]> Users that don't want the fastboot feature will be capable of removing it themselves I'd say. If you want to use emCORE to do anything other than boot Rockbox you're *probably* somewhat techno-literate.
09:06 < TheSeven> i think users should manage to figure out how to enable fastboot if they want to. if they don't, this needs a howto.
09:07 < TheSeven> if we enable fastboot by default users will have much less of a chance to figure out how to recover things themselves
09:07 < TheSeven> (because 1. the boot menu is largely unknown to them and 2. they might not even figure out how to launch it)
09:08 < TheSeven> temporary fix for 160gb thick ce-ata ipod classic users that don't read the release notes and run into "incompatible api version": re-bootstrap through DFU, downgrade to r708, upgrade to r855 again
09:08 < TheSeven> that should kill init.emcoreapp
09:42 < [Saint]> Maybe I'm wrong...but I think the large majority of users will never touch the boot menu apart from the obvious one, the rockbox logo.
09:43 < [Saint]> I d talked to users that were literally scared of the fact they entered s sub-menu instead of booting rb.
09:43 < [Saint]> *I've talked.
09:46 < [Saint]> For the general populous I think it should behave just like a "normal" bootloader and only uncover itself on boot with a key combo (or perhaps from within rockbox, as a plugin?)
09:46 < [Saint]> launch_emcore.rock
09:49 < [Saint]> (Which wouldn't be a "real" plugin in the Rockbox sense, just a "shutdown and reboot into boot menu" ...thing.)
09:50 < [Saint]> Just an idea...I guess I have different ideas on sanity from an end users pov.
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11:22 < user890104> TheSeven: is init.emcoreapp supposed to be deleted during emcore installation? because now it's removed on the classics, but it's not on nano2g.
11:22 < user890104> and also: [02:36:10] <user890104> but on the other side, *any* init app could be wrong version after an emcore update
11:23 < user890104> so they should be deleted i think
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13:15 < Kuitsi> i'm kind of lost when reading installation instructions. i'm trying to update emcore but i'm lost with all those abbreviations :)
13:17 < Kuitsi> i'm running linux and i have 120 GB classic
13:20 < Kuitsi> i don't need bootstrap-ipodclassic.dfu at all if i can remember how can i access UMSboot (i have seen it before, so i guess i can access it again somehow)
13:21 < Kuitsi> is that right?
13:25 < Farthen> well
13:26 < Farthen> you are currently having an official release installed and want to update to the new one?
13:26 < Farthen> just enter umsboot from the bootloader then
13:27 < Kuitsi> i have some testing version from user890104
13:27 < Farthen> i see
13:27 < Farthen> you should probably just update through umsboot anyways
13:28 < Farthen> it is in the boot menu, just look for it
13:28 < Kuitsi> found it
13:29 < Farthen> ok, great. just boot it and drop the .ubi file
13:29 < Farthen> into the file system
13:29 < Farthen> safely eject and plug your ipod out
13:29 < Farthen> then follow the on-scree instructions
13:29 < Farthen> *on-screen
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13:35 < Kuitsi> it's snowing so it works. thanks :)
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16:46  * user890104 pings TheSeven
16:47 < user890104>         boot->load_from_file(&bootinfo.firmware, &bootinfo.size, false, "/.boot/appleos.bin", 0);
16:47 < user890104>         cprintf(2, "0x%08x 0x%08x %d %d\n", &bootinfo.firmware, &bootinfo.size, bootinfo.firmware, bootinfo.size);
16:47 < user890104> Connected to emCORE Debugger v0.2.3 r855 running on iPod nano 2g
16:47 < user890104> Dropped into emCORE console.
16:47 < user890104> 0x08038EB4 0x08038EB8 0 0
16:47 < user890104> but the file is there
16:51 < user890104> file_open returns -7
16:52 < user890104> which is "file not found"... but...
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17:32 < fmibot> New commit by farthen (r856): bootmenu-ipodnano2g: Fix a bug that prevented booting the OF (kudos to user890104)

17:33 < fmibot> r856 build result: All projects green!
17:33 < Farthen> user890104: this one should work :-P
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18:03 < fmibot> New commit by farthen (r857): bootmenu-ipodnano2g-wintertheme: Backport the bugfix from r856

18:04 < fmibot> r857 build result: All projects green!
18:19 < Farthen> any noteboot supporters in here? i need to win an argument
18:19 < Farthen> (you have already been counted, [Saint])
18:20 < user890104> me too, for removing it as a release format because it's too fragile
18:20 < Farthen> i basically just need one of the people in here to say "i want that noteboot stays because i like installing emcore with a bootnote"
18:20 < Farthen> it's not fragile, it works great if it works
18:20 < Farthen> :-p
18:21 < user890104> it doesn't always work though
18:21 < user890104> so it's not stable, and will never be
18:21 < Farthen> it used to work on of'ed ipods
18:21 < Farthen> that have just been restored
18:21 < Farthen> now on the other hand, it doesn't work at all
18:21 < Farthen> because someone broke it
18:22  * Farthen sends user890104 back to his desk, telling him to find the regression
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18:39  * Farthen decides to kill bootnote and postpone fixing it to some time in the future
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18:53 < fmibot> New commit by farthen (r858): installer-ipodclassic: Remove init.emcoreapp on install again (reverts the change from r835)
This is needed for any fastboot user upgrading from the latest release with a CE-ATA iPod classic.

18:54 < fmibot> r858 build result: All projects green!
18:55 < fmibot> New commit by farthen (r859): installer-ipodclassic, bootmenu-ipodnano2g, bootmenu-ipodnano2g-wintertheme: Bump patch version numbers

18:56 < fmibot> r859 build result: All projects green!
18:56 < Farthen> let's release this crap again
19:04  * TheSeven would like to fix this differently
19:06 < user890104> TheSeven: which one?
19:06 < TheSeven> init.emcoreapp
19:06 < TheSeven> and noteboot also needs a fix
19:06  * TheSeven wonders what went wrong with that one
19:07 < user890104> TheSeven: i suspect compiler/optimizer issues
19:07 < user890104> i remember when the exact same source produced a valid bootnote on your machine, and a non-working one on mine
19:08 < user890104> iirc you were building on windows
19:18 < TheSeven> that's why we use a known-working ftlstub binary nowadays
19:20 < user890104> btw i think that "Uninstall emCORE" on n2g should have a confirmation message too
19:35 < Farthen> TheSeven: the proper fix is something entirely different and would involve the api version being set in the app header
19:35 < Farthen> so that emcore knows it itself
19:35 < Farthen> but this fix is known to work
19:35 < Farthen> and it does solve the problem
19:36 < Farthen> if we take two weeks for a hotfix release then we would have dozens of support requests during that time
19:36 < Farthen> i want to get this thing out ASAP to solve the biggest problems
19:37 < Farthen> after that we can still think of a *proper* solution to this reoccurring problem
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19:43 < user890104> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WCq4iVWF
19:43 < user890104> ubuntu + umsboot + classic
19:43 < Farthen> uname -a
19:44 < user890104> 3.0.0 iirc
19:44 < user890104> i'm rebooting it atm
19:44 < user890104> Linux ubuntu 3.0.0-12-generic #20-Ubuntu SMP Fri Oct 7 14:50:42 UTC 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
19:45 < Farthen> 3.0.x fixed the ehci bug. i don't know if it was already 3.0.0 or some later version
19:45 < Farthen> user890104: do you want to play the "find the regression" game again?
19:46 < Farthen> or shall we just pretend nothing happened and release this now?
19:46 < user890104> Farthen: for the bootnote?
19:46 < Farthen> for the ehci bug you just showed us
19:47 < user890104> ah, nothing happened :) just showing it fyi
19:47 < user890104> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pBnWYJcW
19:47 < user890104> works fine
19:48  * Farthen releases r859
19:49 < user890104> we should name these somehow
19:49 < user890104> or more likely number them in a proper way
19:50 < user890104> some general number that can be later used to trace the versions of the components in the release
19:51 < user890104> something descriptive like ipodnano2g-installer0.2.1-iloader0.2.2-uninstaller0.2.0-embios0.1.4-embiosldr0.1.1-umsboot0.1.0-20101103-r250.ipodx, but shorter
19:51 < Farthen> what about naming them after animals and having a table?
19:51 < Farthen> :-p
19:52 < Farthen> oh wait, is "fail" a proper animal? because that is how i would name r855
19:54 < user890104> lol
19:54 < user890104> you want to go the osx/ubuntu naming way?
19:55 < user890104> they are using cats, we could use dog breeds :P
19:55 < benedikt93> go for cars and take "Fiat" ^^
20:00 < TheSeven> i wouldn't release right now
20:04 < TheSeven> otherwise you'll will be releasing the fix of the fix of the fix in a couple of days
20:07  * user890104 notes that the left/right audio channels on both nano2g and classic are swapped
20:07 < user890104> (used http://www.4horsemen.net/binkster/tracks/track01.zip for testing)
20:08 < TheSeven> and that noteboot doesn't work, and that the confirmation prompt is still missing, and whatever...
20:08 < TheSeven> lots of easy things while we're at it, taking one or two ce-ata support requests (which can be answered by a one-liner) into account
20:10 < TheSeven> and i really would have fixed this init.emcoreapp issue differently
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20:11 < TheSeven> either by renaming (or completely removing) it, or by bumping the emcoreapp header version in order to add a syscallapi version field
20:11 < TheSeven> so, please fix the above mentioned things and release a fix of the fix when you're done
20:12 < TheSeven> while we're at it, have the just released builds been tested at all?
20:12 < TheSeven> or just compiled and uploaded by Farthen who doesn't have any device?
20:12 < user890104> i compiled and tested all of them on my ipods
20:13 < TheSeven> fine, so you're volunteering as a release managerß
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20:35 < user890104> well, i'm not sure if i can decide when a new release should be done
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22:19 < fmibot> New commit by farthen (r860): emcore/tools/libipodcrypto.py: Clean up the functions that deal with file operations, add some extra exception handling to file operations and properly remove the outfile if an error occurred during the function call.
22:20 < fmibot> r860 build result: All projects green!
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 03 00:03:23 2012