--- Log opened Mon Jul 05 01:09:58 2010
01:09 *** MarcelloC has joined #linux4nano-dev
01:34 *** Xqtftqx has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
02:08 *** MarcelloC has quit IRC (Quit: Bye, Sods)
02:38 *** TheSeven has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:42 *** TheSeven has joined #linux4nano-dev
02:42 *** mode/#linux4nano-dev [+o TheSeven] by chanserv
02:53 *** Xqtftqx has joined #linux4nano-dev
03:44 *** Xqtftqx has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
03:48 *** Xqtftqx has joined #linux4nano-dev
05:22 *** Keripo has joined #linux4nano-dev
05:22 *** Keripo has left #linux4nano-dev
05:28 *** Xqtftqx has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
05:50 *** cmwslw has quit IRC (Quit: Ex-Chat)
06:00 *** scorche has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:01 *** scorche has joined #linux4nano-dev
09:31 *** perror has joined #linux4nano-dev
09:31 *** mode/#linux4nano-dev [+o perror] by chanserv
10:01 *** watto has joined #linux4nano-dev
10:43 *** liar has joined #linux4nano-dev
12:20 *** benedikt93 has joined #linux4nano-dev
12:45 *** MarcelloC has joined #linux4nano-dev
13:09 *** benedikt93 has quit IRC (Quit: Bye ;))
13:21 *** Jiss has joined #linux4nano-dev
13:21 *** Jiss has quit IRC (Client Quit)
14:01 *** benedikt93 has joined #linux4nano-dev
14:02 *** kidamnesiac has joined #linux4nano-dev
14:03 < kidamnesiac> hi all just to know, i've got a 120gb 6.5Gen Ipod Classic, is there any chance of freeing it from apple firmware? thank you all and greeting from italy
14:07 < benedikt93> kidamnesiac: AFAIK, there is currently no custom firmware for Classic 6.5 . Only thing achieved is execution of custom code (see http://l4n.clustur.com/index.php/Status).
14:08 < benedikt93> You might want to wait for others here to answer, main developer is AFAIK TheSeven
14:09 < TheSeven> that's correct
14:09 < TheSeven> there's no usable code for it yet, but there hopefully will be some one day
14:09 < TheSeven> the most important roadblock has been defeated, now someone "just" needs to do the work.
14:10 < TheSeven> benedikt93: any news on your nano3g efforts?
14:12 < benedikt93> TheSeven: actually no, last two weeks I didn't spend any sec on it as there were so many other things in my RL. Additionally there were some things to party :D But now as I got holidays I'm going to spent some time on it again.
14:12 < kidamnesiac> good then, i'm glad that you guys achieved that much!
14:13 < kidamnesiac> i'd be glad to wait, no hurry for me, just the usual wanting more from our beautiful device!
14:14 < TheSeven> benedikt93: roughly the same over here
14:14 < TheSeven> i have an exam and a presentation coming up, but starting from the 20th, I should have some time for ipod hacking again
14:15 < benedikt93> kidamnesiac: You could of course help the project achieving even more ;)
14:16 < kidamnesiac> of course i'd be glad to, but aside helping you iron out things testing releases i don't know how much help i can bring in!
14:16 < kidamnesiac> :P
14:17 < TheSeven> btw, perror: the gna homepage needs some serious love :-/
14:17 *** Marcello|PC has joined #linux4nano-dev
14:18 *** MarcelloC has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:18 < TheSeven> to summarize: we have exploits for everything except the 5g nano
14:25 *** Marcello|PC has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:30 *** kidamnesiac has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed)
14:39 < perror> TheSeven: love ?
14:39 < perror> TheSeven: Update you mean !
14:39 < perror> :)
14:39 < TheSeven> well, it looks a bit neglected :-)
14:39 < perror> Yes... I'm the only guilty... I should update it. I promise I'll do something.
14:40 < perror> Or, do you think I should close it ?
14:40 < perror> I have to admit I don't have time anymore to spend in this project... and users tends to be extremely harsh on that.
14:41 < perror> (remember the guy on the mailing-list ?)
14:45 < Farthen> well, i'd suggest to close it and redirect to the wiki. but then all we have is the wiki which is probably not enough either.
14:46 < perror> Ok, I'll give it some love... :)
14:47 < Farthen> hmm, it would be one step to sort out all the outdated information and place a more dominant link to the wiki
14:48 < perror> But, I'll need some help on what should be updated. I'll run a thread (ie flamewar) on the mailing-list to know what to update and to query you all about the exact status.
14:48 < perror> status (of the project).
14:48 * perror kind of lost track of all this by now.
14:50 < Farthen> hmm, maybe a link to the wiki would be enough for now. from all documented information this is the most up to date source
14:52 < Farthen> but maybe TheSeven can make a quick comment on that? :-P
14:52 < perror> Farthen, I noticed that the wiki was unavailable from time to time. Isn't it a problem ?
14:52 < Farthen> hmm, yes, sometimes it is annoying
14:53 < TheSeven> the core problem is that we don't have a 100% reliable, accurate and up to date resource
14:53 < TheSeven> some regions of the wiki aren't much better than gna right now
14:54 < Farthen> the core problem is that this is just completely unorganized and the most valuable information is irc logs
14:54 < TheSeven> yep
14:54 < perror> agree
14:54 < perror> I tried to put some students on it, but...
14:55 < TheSeven> yep, I know :-)
14:55 < Farthen> hmm, they did some summary and then they disappeared into nowhere
14:55 < TheSeven> actually the result of that was much better than I would have expected
14:56 < perror> Yes, it was not bad. Not perfect but not bad.
14:56 < TheSeven> true
14:56 < Farthen> yep, it was quite good. but it is somehow outdated again
14:56 < TheSeven> as it was mainly targetting the 2g, it's still quite up to date
14:57 *** benedikt93 is now known as benedikt93|AFK
14:57 < TheSeven> so we currently have 6 places where information is kept: irc logs (should be moved), mailing list archive (dito), gna, the l4n wiki, the rockbox wiki and finally that report
14:57 < Farthen> yeah, right. forgot about that (alzheimer's, you know xD)
14:57 < perror> Ah, the rockbox wiki also hold some information (I didn't know).
14:58 < TheSeven> that's mostly about rockbox's state on the devices
14:58 < perror> ok
14:58 < TheSeven> however, they are documenting their hardware findings there for other players
14:59 < perror> Which is quite valuable for the project.
14:59 < perror> Should be taken into consideration (and linked on the website)
14:59 < Farthen> i don't think that we should migrate our information into the rockbox wiki though. this should stay independent
14:59 < TheSeven> i'm not too sure about this
15:00 < TheSeven> actually this project has somehow become part of rockbox :-)
15:00 < perror> At least, shouldn't we try to keep a webpage about relevant pointers ?
15:00 < Farthen> yes, at least until this is all a bit more organized
15:01 < TheSeven> I think there are two possible long term routes: merge into rockbox, or try to separate the rockbox and ipod data
15:01 < Farthen> i think that this is the reverse engineering/hacking/"hardware"-part of the project
15:02 < TheSeven> either way, our data (mainly our wiki, logs, ML archive and gna) should be merged to some central resource
15:02 < perror> TheSeven, what would be your own choice ?
15:03 < Farthen> anyone could build his own firmware with the information gathered by this project. so i think it should be seperated, renamed and put on some website
15:04 < TheSeven> i'm not really sure what to do. we're cooperating really closely with rockbox, and separating our tools from theirs has lead to a huge mess (see iloader/nandfsck/whatever). however this gave us more freedom and made some things possible that wouldn't have been otherwise.
15:04 < TheSeven> having a dedicated wiki for the reversing information was very helpful, those "hardware" pages on the rockbox wiki are usually even worse than our wiki is now
15:04 < Farthen> that's the point. do you think it would be a good idea for ibugger being a part of rockbox?
15:05 < TheSeven> why not? they've had similar things for other platforms. (bootbox, their archos gdb stub, ...)
15:06 < perror> Rockbox or not. Somehow the project came to his end. We all contributed to break the 2G nano, we just fail to provide a clear documentation on it. Am I right ? But now, we are asked to do the same with all iPod serie... it seems out our original scope to me...
15:06 < TheSeven> true
15:07 < Farthen> the original scope was to port linux to the nano 2g. so yes, the project is out of scope now
15:07 < TheSeven> but it doesn't really matter what the project goal has been
15:08 < TheSeven> it matters what we're doing currently, and what we're aiming to be
15:08 < perror> agree
15:09 < perror> So, you suggest two options. Merge into Rockbox or Keep running and try to go for other iPods.
15:09 < TheSeven> we have somehow adopted the hacking work for the other ipod generations as well, and we should continue working on this as the 2g is mostly done by now
15:09 < Farthen> yes. and that is understanding the ipod's hardware, exploiting it and porting rockbox
15:09 < perror> I think we all agree in fact...
15:09 < TheSeven> actually I would like to keep the documentation goal instead of porting some specific software
15:09 < TheSeven> porting the software will happen anyway :-)
15:09 < perror> TheSeven, I agree with your view.
15:10 < perror> But the name "linux4nano" is quite misleading and we should change it.
15:10 < Farthen> yes, that's my point of view, too
15:10 < perror> Maybe start a new project or a "fork".
15:11 < TheSeven> but what should we change it to?
15:11 < TheSeven> and what should happen with hosting and data?
15:12 < TheSeven> should we try to build a new documentation portal? should we take the wiki, try to clean that up, and give it a proper front page?
15:12 < perror> We need to keep it somehow.
15:14 < Farthen> for the name, what about iPodDevTeam to make people understand immediately what this is about? Because everyone knows the iPhoneDevTeam
15:14 < perror> It could be taken as the "official" Apple dev team.
15:14 < TheSeven> it also looks a bit "cloneish"
15:14 < Farthen> yes, sure. i'm not very creative, i know :-P
15:14 < perror> :)
15:15 < TheSeven> neither am I.
15:15 < perror> iPodBreakTeam
15:15 < Farthen> haha
15:15 < TheSeven> freeyouripod.org :-P
15:16 < Farthen> hmm, that one sounds ok to me
15:16 < Farthen> but maybe someone knows something even better?
15:16 < TheSeven> but FYI is an awful acronym
15:16 < perror> breakyouripod.org -> BYP
15:17 < perror> :)
15:17 < TheSeven> that sounds a bit like destroying it :P
15:17 < perror> Nah, freeyouripod is ok for me.
15:17 < Farthen> yes, people would always ask if this bricks their ipod
15:17 < perror> Farthen, you're right.
15:17 < TheSeven> another issue is webhosting. currently our stuff is distributed across four places, which of course reduces the impact of outages
15:18 < TheSeven> (clustur, gna, the-seven.tk (hosted at bplaced right now) and farthen's server)
15:18 < Farthen> five, actually if you count the iphonewiki
15:18 < TheSeven> i don't really count that, as we aren't maintaining it
15:19 < Farthen> yep, my server only hosts some irc logs, this could be easily migrated
15:19 < TheSeven> yeah, actually that's just a backup for clustur
15:20 < Farthen> i'm wondering if some webspace would be enough or if we'd need a vserver or something with root access?
15:20 < TheSeven> however, we should set up a place where the front page, wiki, downloads and logs could be hosted together. ideally multiple people should have access to that
15:20 < TheSeven> Farthen: the IRC bot is the only thing that needs shell access
15:21 < Farthen> if someone buys a domain i *could* host this all. but i think it is better to have something independent
15:21 < TheSeven> we might want to ask haxx to take that one over
15:21 < perror> Let me sum up: 1) We all agree on the fact the project should be to study and break the security scheme of all iPods.  2) We are NOT really interested into developing the drivers and the OS around it and we should leave it to others  3) We should start a new fresh project but keep an eye on the past documentation (maybe try to do a sum-up of all the existing and finish it up with the 2G).  4) We are all damn crazy (don't you think ?) :)
15:21 < Farthen> full ack
15:21 < Farthen> (especially about 4)
15:22 < perror> Yes, especially 4) for me too. :)
15:22 < TheSeven> partly NAK at 2. I think that reversing and documenting the way the drivers work should be one of our goals
15:22 < TheSeven> this usually means having some example (demo) code, that isn't really tied to an OS.
15:22 < perror> Right. I agree.
15:23 < Farthen> hmm, but only the theoretical aspect, not the actual implementation?
15:23 < TheSeven> proof of concept / validation implementations
15:23 < Farthen> ok, yes if anyone bothers to write demo code.... :-P
15:23 < perror> Reversing specs, I would say
15:23 < Farthen> but yes, the goal should be to do more documentation
15:24 < TheSeven> We'll probably also want to have out own set of tools (ibugger etc.) and maybe a bootloader solution for our targets
15:25 < Farthen> yes and we need to seperate copyrighted work from apple and tools
15:25 < TheSeven> actually we shouldn't even archive apple-copyrighted work centrally
15:25 < Farthen> yes, that's what i mean
15:26 < TheSeven> instead we should document/automate the way to obtain it
15:26 < Farthen> one the other hand we should make a svn/git/whatever repo for all the tools
15:26 < TheSeven> definitely
15:26 < perror> TheSeven, sometimes it is not possible (eg the bootloader code obtained by tof).
15:26 < TheSeven> also for non-wiki documentation
15:27 < Farthen> (which needs shell access again)
15:27 < TheSeven> perror: that was only for a very short time. about two weeks later, everybody was able to obtain that.
15:27 < perror> TheSeven: Right.
15:28 * TheSeven considers separating webhosting and other services
15:28 < perror> So, where can we host such a project ? GitHub ? Google Code ? Others ?
15:28 < TheSeven> the other services (svn/git, irc logger, maybe a mailing list) could maybe hosted by haxx
15:28 < Farthen> i could again do that. it doesn't take too much load so i could put it on my vserver. or maybe haxx? i don't know
15:29 < TheSeven> we should ask some swede regarding that, but they'll probably push us towards merging with rockbox again :-)
15:29 < TheSeven> Farthen, what's the specs of your vserver?
15:29 < TheSeven> (mostly space/traffic)
15:30 < perror> Farthen: You still have some availability problem from time to time ? Because it is quite annoying when we need to access the data... :-/
15:31 < TheSeven> I don't think that server has reliability problems
15:31 < Farthen> hmm, debian squeeze, some 30 gb space, unlimited traffic (at least theoretically. if you produce too much traffic you get pushed on a slow node which i would like to avoid)
15:31 < TheSeven> well, as long as they don't block completely or want additional money if you exceed traffic, that's fine
15:31 < Farthen> and when it has TheSeven kicks me in the ass and i would try to fix it asap xD
15:33 < perror> :)
15:33 < perror> You deserve it. ;-)
15:33 < Farthen> i don't think this could be sponsored by donations so it is the only solution i can think of
15:34 < perror> Anyway, I don't expect fame for this project. Only few developers and hackers should look at it. So, I don't think a big traffic should be expected.
15:34 < Farthen> someone should buy a domain
15:35 < Farthen> who wants to pay 50ct per month for this project? volunteers? TheSeven? xD
15:35 < perror> How much is it ? (to buy and to maintain ?)
15:36 < perror> 6 euros a year ?
15:36 * TheSeven would favor a .org domain, and those are often a bit more expensive than for example .de
15:36 < Farthen> so you'd like to pay more? nice!
15:37 < Farthen> .org would be about 10€ a year
15:38 < TheSeven> so you'd sponsor hosting, if someone pays the domain?
15:38 < perror> Well, I can pay for that. I really don't mind. My major problem is that I don't know if I will have time to spend on the project.
15:39 < Farthen> i understand that. if you'd pay for the domain it would be really nice
15:40 < perror> Ok, I'll do it.
15:40 < Farthen> thanks. i'm a poor student and don't have any money xD
15:41 < TheSeven> don't tell me you couldn't afford those 10€ per year :-P
15:41 < Farthen> hmm, don't tell me you have some spare money :-P
15:41 < Farthen> *don't
15:42 < TheSeven> i don't tell that. actually I could pay for the domain if need be.
15:43 < TheSeven> but let's think about the bigger problems: domain name? web site/wiki structure? who has access to what?
15:44 < Farthen> i'd say we take the domain name you suggested before. freeyouripod.org sounds good i think
15:44 < TheSeven> hmm, people will keep dubbing that FYI, which will lead to confusion
15:45 < Farthen> i think this is a very small concern. and i can't think of anything better
15:45 < TheSeven> we should also think of some kind of logo / "corporate identity". I really like cory's logo, but we should check some legal aspects/licenses
15:47 < Farthen> TheSeven: don't you know some creative people from university who'd love to create something cool?
15:48 < TheSeven> regarding what?
15:48 < perror> In fact, this project is a very nice source of students' projects in reverse engineering, so I'll pay for that. ;-)
15:49 < Farthen> TheSeven: regarding the logo
15:50 < TheSeven> Farthen: I don't think much needs to be done there
15:50 < Farthen> so we just take the one from cory?
15:51 < TheSeven> yes, possibly with minor modifications, and integrate that into a website design somehow
15:53 < Farthen> i like the iloader website. something like that, maybe a bit less dark and a bit less minimal and it should be ok
15:53 < Farthen> for the wiki i think we should take mediawiki again or what do you think? only editable by registered users
15:54 * TheSeven thinks one could cherrypick some ideas from ipodlinux.org
15:54 < Farthen> hmm, something like that would also be nice
15:55 < Farthen> really nice would be if it had a central login but that probably means some work. also a consistent design should be on the list
15:56 < TheSeven> login for what?
15:56 < TheSeven> there's only wiki and svn, which needs to be separate IMO
15:56 < Farthen> yes, ok
15:56 < Farthen> so you think the home page should be a mediawiki?
15:57 < TheSeven> probably yes, like it's done on the ipl web site
15:58 < TheSeven> too bad i don't have the sourceode of that any more, but I might ask some people over there...
15:58 *** Keripo has joined #linux4nano-dev
15:58 < Farthen> we don't need a forum, do we?
15:58 < TheSeven> i don't think so
15:58 < TheSeven> that's major maintenance overhead
15:58 < perror> We need a mailing-list with a 'semi-public' archive.
15:59 < perror> This was needed because of some reverse engineering legal stuff.
16:00 *** Xqtftqx has joined #linux4nano-dev
16:00 < Farthen> yes, ok. i *could* do that, too as there is a mailserver installed on the server anyway
16:00 < perror> If there is no password to access archive we might expose some copyrighted material.
16:00 *** Xqtftqx has quit IRC (Client Quit)
16:00 < TheSeven> copyrighted material shouldn't be on the ML if possible
16:01 < perror> yes. But discussion might indirectly expose some.
16:01 < perror> It happens.
16:01 < Farthen> also it might expose some exploits that should be kept secret
16:01 < Farthen> so it is better to password-protect the ml and the irc logs
16:02 < TheSeven> apple will be on that ML, no matter what we do
16:02 < Farthen> sure? in a project consisting of maybe 4 or 5 core members?
16:03 < perror> Yes, but having no password at all is clearly seen as a problem for lawyers.
16:04 < TheSeven> yep
16:04 < perror> This was the best trade-off we found.
16:04 < Farthen> so did we agree on a name now or not?
16:04 < perror> freemyipod.org (no?)
16:05 < TheSeven> oh, that one is cool.
16:05 < TheSeven> it sounds really nice and removes the acronym problem
16:05 < Farthen> yes, nice variation from yours (even if unintentional)
16:05 < perror> Oh, I changed the 'your' into 'my' without noticing it. :)
16:06 < TheSeven> perror: that's the idea i was searching for all the time :-)
16:06 < perror> Sorry. :)
16:06 < perror> I didn't do it on purpose.
16:08 < Farthen> and versioning system? i don't want to start a flamewar so svn is probably best xD
16:09 < perror> Anyway, I'll use git-svn ! ;-)
16:10 * perror don't really care unless you want to use CVS itself...
16:10 * Farthen would propagate git, but TheSeven wouldn't like it, i know that
16:11 < TheSeven> if tortoisegit works reasonably well, I'd also vote for git
16:12 < Farthen> seems to work fairly well as far as i can see it on the homepage
16:13 < perror> Beware, except if you really want to try, which ones of you have an experience of development on git ?
16:13 * Farthen has some
16:14 < perror> Moreover, on such a small project, svn will probably be far enough.
16:15 < perror> We will use it mainly for syncing our developments (svn is designed for that) and not to review patches (git is design for that).
16:15 < Farthen> hmm, maybe you are right
16:15 < perror> I know well both of them and I would advise svn for this project.
16:19 *** benedikt93|AFK is now known as benedikt93
16:19 *** n00b81 has joined #linux4nano-dev
16:19 *** mode/#linux4nano-dev [+o n00b81] by chanserv
16:22 < TheSeven> chanserv is driving me nuts
16:23 < n00b81> Is chanserv going +nt crazy on this chan as well?
16:37 < perror> TheSeven, Farthen: freemyipod.org is available at gandi.net for 12€ a year. Tell me when you want it and I'll take it. :)
16:38 < TheSeven> farthen seems to be afk :-/
16:39 < n00b81> perror: sounds good
16:39 < TheSeven> i'm happy with that domain name, if that provider allows setting up the A and MX entries like we need them, go for it
16:41 < perror> "A and MX entries"... hmmm, I need more explanation here. :)
16:42 < perror> ---> The ability to create and manage your own zone files (A, MX, CNAME, ...) for your domains.
16:42 < perror> See: https://www.gandi.net/domain/zones
16:43 < perror> TheSeven: Tell me if the features they are providing are ok for you.
16:45 < TheSeven> sounds good
16:45 < TheSeven> this looks like they only allow up to 10 dns entries, but that could be circumvented by hosting our own DNS if need be
16:47 *** Jiss has joined #linux4nano-dev
16:47 < TheSeven> (what do we need? A for the freemyipod.org, MX for freemyipod.org, A for www.freemyipod.org, A for svn.freemyipod.org... any others?)
16:48 < n00b81> mailing?
16:48 < TheSeven> 10 should be sufficient anyway
16:48 < TheSeven> lists.freemyipod.org
16:48 < n00b81> true
16:48 < TheSeven> can't think of more right now
16:49 < perror> Ok, then 12€ should be enough.
16:50 < perror> Let not do this today. I want to ask if there is a better deal before signing up. But, I will do it this week. Ok ?
16:50 < TheSeven> yes, no need to hurry things
16:50 < TheSeven> maybe someone comes up with an even better name :-)
16:50 < TheSeven> btw, I have registered the needed IRC channels
16:52 < perror> TheSeven, great !
17:21 *** n00b81 has left #linux4nano-dev
17:53 *** perror has quit IRC (Quit: Bye all !)
17:56 *** benedikt93 has quit IRC (Quit: Bye ;))
18:03 *** cmwslw has joined #linux4nano-dev
18:04 *** mode/#linux4nano-dev [+o cmwslw] by chanserv
18:40 *** Xqtftqx has joined #linux4nano-dev
19:27 *** Jiss has quit IRC (Quit: Quitte)
--- Log opened Mon Jul 05 19:50:56 2010
19:50 *** leguin.freenode.net changed the topic of #linux4nano-dev to: Linux4Nano *developer* discussion channel | Non-development-related messages => #linux4nano please | Unified iBugger v0.1.0,  iLoader beta (2G only): http://bit.ly/oXZRO
19:52 *** watto has left #linux4nano-dev
20:13 *** Keripo has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
20:25 *** benedikt93 has joined #linux4nano-dev
20:39 *** Keripo has joined #linux4nano-dev
20:56 *** Xqtftqx has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
21:59 *** benedikt93 has quit IRC (Quit: Bye ;))
22:29 *** Xqtftqx has joined #linux4nano-dev
23:24 *** Keripo has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
--- Log opened Mon Jul 05 23:47:03 2010
23:47 *** kornbluth.freenode.net changed the topic of #linux4nano-dev to: Linux4Nano *developer* discussion channel | Non-development-related messages => #linux4nano please | Unified iBugger v0.1.0,  iLoader beta (2G only): http://bit.ly/oXZRO
--- Log opened Mon Jul 05 23:47:26 2010
23:47 *** anthony.freenode.net changed the topic of #linux4nano-dev to: Linux4Nano *developer* discussion channel | Non-development-related messages => #linux4nano please | Unified iBugger v0.1.0,  iLoader beta (2G only): http://bit.ly/oXZRO
23:52 *** Keripo has joined #linux4nano-dev
23:52 *** Keripo has left #linux4nano-dev
--- Log closed Tue Jul 06 00:45:03 2010